Talk:The Magician (Tarot card)

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Major Arcana Talk Page (Talk:Major_Arcana)[edit]


See also the central Talk page for all the Major Arcana at Talk:Major_Arcana. This can be the discussion nexus for overall occult Trump description and analysis. Thanks for all your fine work!-- self-ref (nagasiva yronwode) (talk) 23:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Naming Conventions[edit]

Anyone have a problem with this being moved to The Magician (tarot)? It fits better with the naming, and then can better be linked to from a disambiguation page. - UtherSRG 01:15, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --Spikey 02:25, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Titles are generally disambiguated by what they are, so I would prefer The Magician (Tarot card) (I think Tarot is always capitalized). There are other exceptions, for various reasons, so it isn't vital, but The Magician is not a Tarot, it is a Tarot card. Tuf-Kat
According to Wikipedia:Disambiguation,
The word or phrase in parentheses should be one of two things: a generic noun describing what the specific title is an instance of (for example, Mercury (element), Seal (mammal)); or the subject or context to which the term applies (for example, Union (set theory), Inflation (economics)).
So it can be either. I think I agree in this case, though. --Spikey 02:50, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agreed. :) UtherSRG 03:17, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I found articles in both The Magician (Tarot card) and The Magician (Tarot). I merged the information into The Magician (Tarot card) as this seems to be the prevailing naming scheme. The Magician (Tarot) is now a redirect. Spudtater 19 Apr 2005

I removed the "Examples" section since it was entirely Original Research which Wikipedia does not allow. I left the "mythopoeteic interpretation" section because that may have come from a reputable source but it seems to be something based on personal interpretation like the "Examples" section. - DNewhall

Unverifiable and unbalanced content[edit]

The article is just personal opinions from an occult enthusiast about the nature and meaning of a particular tarot card. No peer reviewed books or journal articles are cited. No references or footnotes are given. When a new statement is added, the source needs to be cited, and the source needs to be verifiable, and reliable. Waite is not an unbiased, factual source on the history or evolution of tarot cards. The work can be cited properly, however: "Waite's opinion in his book The Pictorial Key to the Tarot ... etc" The other sources are definitely of questionable academic weight.

The card in question has a history of over 500 years in European card games in which it is used as trump card (see Tarocchi). The article is unbalanced in that it only features the recent uses of the card for divination. This makes the article biased due to its recentism. Since the article ignores use of the card for game play in Europe and other parts of the world, it offers an anglo-american perspective that raises NPOV issues. There are academic sources and sources from international organizations discussing the history and evolution of the "Mountebank" card as well as its use in games. (Bateleur implies juggler or mountebank, not a "wand bearer". The original names were The Bagatto or The Bagatella.) Such sources need to be utilized. - Parsa 07:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

That sounds good. How would you like to add a section on the Magician in card games. It would balance the divining use of Tarot (which is what many Tarot users associate it with).Julia Rossi 12:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

other names and roles[edit]

We might also add that the card is more commonly known as the Pagat - at least for card games - where it often has an important role as the lowest trump. There tend to be special bonuses for winning the last trick with this card and posessing it in your trick pile makes a big difference in the popular French game where, along with the Fool/Excuse and the Mond, it is is known as a 'bout'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philebus (talkcontribs) 12:08, August 25, 2007 (UTC)


In the interests of wikifying this and making it more accessible, I'm having a go at simplifying such stuff as: "the will in the liberation of its union with that which is above" and "in the fixation thereof" to make it more like communication in the year 2007. Hope that's okay.Julia Rossi 12:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Article templates[edit]

I felt I had to introduce article templates here, as not only has this article failed to improve in regard to content, it has actually gotten much worse. The sources are not reliable and verifiable by WP standards, and the article is becoming more and more loaded with trivial cruft. Most of it is original research synthesized from non-academic, unreliable sources.— Parsa (talk) 21:51, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Table inscriptions[edit]

Nobody ever mentions the three carvings on the front edge of the Magician's table: Water, Fire, Air (the last, depicted as an inverted bird in flight, very similar to that on the Ace of Cups). Certainly, this article doesn't even attempt to explain these correlations, even though these depictions are quite clear in the very picture used in in the article's lede.

These are the three Kabalisic elements (in this system, Earth and Spirit were not considered elements).

I think this also supports the notion of the bird (or dove) on the Ace of Cups as the element of Air, rather than that of divine spirit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:41, 31 December 2015 (UTC)